Curse

majiger · Jun 09, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Ok so I have been playing a war from day one of GW. I have never liked the sundering mod. I mean 20% armor penetration out of 5 hits, thats meh i guess. Anyway, why even use it if a Warrior's strength attribute gives 1% armor penetration per level. This means for example if you have 12 strength and 20% sundering, you hit for 12% sundering every hit other then the 20% of the mod.
So my question is what's the point?
Vamp = life steal, extra dmg and healing
Zealous = Faster enrg recovery (if not blind >.>)
Condition X 33% = extended condition time, dont see anything wrong there
Ele mod = Get through other warriors armor, if you have a hammer or something anti war.

So why does everyone still use sunder?? and who even decided that 20/20, 15^50, +30hp is perfect stats for a weapon??

Lawrence Chang · Jun 09, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

It is perfect.

Perfect = an item with max mods.

20/20 = max
15^50 = max
+30 = max

Likewise, Vamp/Zealous/10/10Furious Mods, and Elemental Mods are all max, and thus perfect.

People use 20/20 as a standard because it is rare and hard to find a max 20/20 sundering mod. However, it does not mean it is the best.

IrishX · Jun 09, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

It's because people are too lazy to weapon swap to vamp for more damage, so they use Sundering for a smaller amount of extra damage with slightly less work involved. Either that, or they have just heard that Sundering was the best for so long, that they believe it.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 09, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Sundering is bad in PvE, armour penetration is actually really bad vs. high armour. The average joe-scrub wammo thinks 20/20, 15^50, +30 hp is best because it's plastered all over end-game greens and it's expensive.

For PvE, Vampiric outdamages Sundering, period.

PvP's a different kettle of fish - on high max damage weapons like Axe and Hammer, getting a sundering proc on a spike/critical hit adds big damage, and big damage makes stuff die. Sundering is good, if a little risky.

And just a couple of things - condition lengtheners are utter shit on warriors, the only condition they cause that matters is deep wound; and deep wound doesn't need to last longer - either it kills something, or it doesn't, and having it last a couple of seconds longer is useless either way.

And on armour penetration - Strength only procs on attack skills, and it does stack with sundering - a critical sunder-Evis with 33% penetration hurts a whole bunch.

Tyla · Jun 09, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

People are too lazy to weaponswap.

A general Warrior's weaponset consists of Elemental, Vamp, Zealous and Sundering. But the Sundering is only good for spiking in PvP and useless on things with a small damage range.

(P.S - Strength's bonus only counts to attack skills)

Mr Emu · Jun 09, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

1. Str only applies on attack skills
2. Sundering is considered perfect because it is the mod of choice when adrenaline spiking in pvp, as it has a chance of enough extra damage to make a difference
3. 15^50 is the least conditional dmg mod as it meshes very well with something you should be trying to do anyway - stay alive
4. +30 is better than the next best contender +5al because the +health also is effective against degen and armor ignoring damage and it helps reduce the risk of getting spiked in pvp

zelgadissan · Jun 09, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I'm going to assume since this is posted in Campfire that it's PvE related, and if that's truly the case there is no reason whatsoever. Unless you're just feeling lazy as hell about weapon swapping there's no reason not to go vampiric under most circumstances, zealous if you need the energy, and elemental against Warriors (remember to switch back against Rangers).

Now if you are feeling lazy as hell about weapon swapping, I guess I'd choose zealous?

Gift3d · Jun 09, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I use furious. All the time.

Parson Brown · Jun 09, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

For me, Sundering is my all-purpose mod. It does it's job and there's no drawback

Vamp=more damage, but also health loss that doesn't go away...even between battles. I swap to this when fighting eles and rangers.

Zealous: see above, but sub -1 pip (50% of a warrior's regen!)

Furious: not a bad choice, but it's capped at 10%, so you gain 11 strikes where you would have gained 10. Not so big to me.

Condition mod. I never use. In PvE, things die too quick to make use. In PvP, the condition probably gets removed anyway.

Ele mod: The only choice vs. other warriors

So I typically carry Sundering, Vamp, and Ele swaps. All have their uses. And give special consideration to hammers. Their higher max damage means you get more bang out of that sundering mod.

As for the 15>50, I think that's the best unless you are running a near-zero energy build, in which case a 15/-5 might be best.

And +30... well, you can't beat it anywhere for a standard W build.

kev read · Jun 09, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

I say f*** it... use vamp

I mean really... the henchie monks aren't THAT bad...

oh and 15^stance pwns face

15^enchanted for derv...

Trvth Jvstice · Jun 09, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

I use Fiery in my first and a Vampiric in my second slot, but my hero/henches don't really care what I use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

4. +30 is better than the next best contender +5al because the +health also is effective against degen and armor ignoring damage and it helps reduce the risk of getting spiked in pvp

-of Fortitude VS -of Defence: Imagine, if you will, you're in a pitched battle against a mob of PVE baddies. You start with your base hp + 30 hp from your weapon. An ele baddie attacks and you (along with a few other teammates) just lost 50 hp. Question: Is the extra 30 hp helping you now? NO

~ Let's say the ele is a boss and is backed up by a bunch of other really mean baddies, and you have a +5 armor mod instead - the battle continues - you are down to 350 hp. Is your +5 armor mod helping you? YES

The point is, in any battle, after the first enemy attack your Fortitude mod isn't helping you at all, but with a +5 armor mod, it will always help you

Age · Jun 10, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

I thought sundering was great on axes even in pve my hammer is elemental.

Parson Brown · Jun 10, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

I use Fiery in my first and a Vampiric in my second slot, but my hero/henches don't really care what I use.

-of Fortitude VS -of Defence: Imagine, if you will, you're in a pitched battle against a mob of PVE baddies. You start with your base hp + 30 hp from your weapon. An ele baddie attacks and you (along with a few other teammates) just lost 50 hp. Question: Is the extra 30 hp helping you now? NO

~ Let's say the ele is a boss and is backed up by a bunch of other really mean baddies, and you have a +5 armor mod instead - the battle continues - you are down to 350 hp. Is your +5 armor mod helping you? YES

The point is, in any battle, after the first enemy attack your Fortitude mod isn't helping you at all, but with a +5 armor mod, it will always help you

IIRC, +5 AL = 1/8 damage reduction.

So, Warrior A has 530HP
Warrior B has 500HP and +5AL

We take your enemy that hits for 50 damage.

Hit 1
Warrior A = 480 Hp / Warrior B = 456 HP

Hit 10
Warrior A = 30 HP / Warrior B = 60 HP

Hit 11
Warrior A = R.I.P / Warrior B = 16HP

Of course, this completely eliminates things like armour-ignoring damage and degen. And I always chose to see the +30 HP not as the FIRST points lost, but the last...

Trvth Jvstice · Jun 10, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

@ Parson Brown - In almost every instance the Warrior with extra armor will be taking less damage per attack. There is NEVER a battle where one would take damage the way you described. Still: after the first hit, the Warrior with extra armor will have an advantage over the Warrior with 30 extra hp.

Epic Monkey Battle · Jun 10, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I'll take the +30 and ask for a prot spirit/spirit bond from the monk that I have with me.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 10, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parson Brown

Furious: not a bad choice, but it's capped at 10%, so you gain 11 strikes where you would have gained 10. Not so big to me..

hmm, call me crazy but... its a 10% chance to get double adrenaline on hit. so 1/10 hits instead of 1 adrenaline you'll gain 2
nvm you probably meant that, misread what you said

**Marty Silverblade** · Jun 10, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Lets compare Furious and Vamp. In 10 hits, you'll get either an extra point of adr or an additional armor ignoring 30 damage. Thus, furious = bad.

DPS matters in PvE, vamp gives higher DPS than sundering, thus vamp > sundering.

Not much else to say on the matter really.

ALF71BE · Jun 10, 2008, 02:40 AM // 02:40

I was wondering on all this yesterday, went onto the Isle of the Nameless. Vampiric, Sundering and Furious. Kinda dissapointed at Furious output, it was around the same category as Sundering, but sundering had more times more damage for 10-50 points. 15 AM, 13 strenght, spamming of Eviscerate + Exe's + Griffon's Sweep, 15^50, started Enraging Charge at one bubble distance and the test ended after 70 seconds. So guess I'm getting a Vampiric then (600 damage more over those 70 seconds).

Bowstring Badass · Jun 10, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

People are too lazy to weaponswap.

A general Warrior's weaponset consists of Elemental, Vamp, Zealous and Sundering. But the Sundering is only good for spiking in PvP and useless on things with a small damage range.

(P.S - Strength's bonus only counts to attack skills)

HURRAY!

But yes sundering should only be on a hammer, and scythe imo.

Whatever happened to that sundering is bad thread and compared it to vampiric?

itsvictor · Jun 10, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Warriors should have Vamp set, zealous set, elemental set, insert random one here(staff or furious spear).

Vamp does a lot of extra damage (Look at Marty's post) which is armor ignoring and builds up after time.

Sundering ONLY on HAMMERS and SCYTHES where the damage brackets are big and benefit most from the armor penetration.

Also don't talk about the armor vs. health thing, it's been discussed to death and you need a huge amount of theorycrafting for it(which is failtastic anyways for various different scenarios, but blah blah blah, wait *insert X factor*! you're not going to get anywhere).